Archdiocesan Assembly 2011 - "The Changing Face of Sunday"

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Permalink Reply by mark on September 26, 2011 at 19:00

Hi,

 

 

Tell me what you think, as my views may be a little if not absolutely controversial; well at least for the past 40 years. I personally believe that the church must revert to its pre Vatican 2 teachings on morality, thought, spiritualty and most importantly that Mass (Latin rite). I have not come to my conclusion lightly. I am a realist and do not believe this will happen any time soon. The church is being ravaged. Well organised and vicious attacks are causing widespread dispersions of the remaining faithful. This is what needs to be discussed. The prophesies given by Our Lady of Great Success will give you all the information you need to come to a similar conclusion as me. These prophesies have been approved by the church and give a huge amount of insight into what is happening in the church right now especially regarding the scandals that have been plaguing the church for some time. By returning to the Latin rite people will return to mass

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Permalink Reply by Shawn van der Linden on September 26, 2011 at 19:29

Hi Mark, you raise some interesting ideas and which I could imagine would generate all sorts of interesting responses.  Thanks for contributing.

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Permalink Reply by Merran Joan Martin on September 27, 2011 at 11:14

Hi Mark

My views may be a little controversial for you too, but I think that we should be taking another look at Vatican II, which breathed new life into the Church at that time. In recent years, I feel that the ideas of the Council have been somewhat eroded and there has been a gradual return to authority and clerical focus of the past that you think we should be returning to. The scandals plaguing the Church are terrible, but the consequent cover up is part of the reason why people are turning away. I don't believe that a return to Latin Rite would do anything to attract people back to Mass, particularly young people.  We all need to have another look at the teachings of Jesus Christ to find a model for our lives.

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Permalink Reply by mark on October 1, 2011 at 10:35

Thank you for replying. I believe it is very important for an open debate especially now. God bless you

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Permalink Reply by Dominic Cudmore on October 6, 2011 at 9:59

Greetings from Sydney

 

You may be interested to know that the COMECE in Brussels (Commission of the Bishops' Conferences of the European Community) have been in alliance will all sorts of groups in order form the European Sunday Alliance www.europeansundayalliance.eu. Their ‘mission' is as follows:

 

‘A work-free Sunday and decent working hours are of paramount importance for citizens throughout Europe. We, the undersigned, believe that all citizens of the European Union are entitled to benefit from decent working hours that, as a matter of principle, exclude working late evenings, nights, bank holidays and Sundays. We believe that today, legislation and practices in place at EU and Member States levels need to be more protective of the health, safety, dignity of everyone and should more attentively promote the reconciliation of professional and family life. We believe that social cohesion in the European citizenship should be reinforced.’

 

Their founding statement can be read here - http://www.europeansundayalliance.eu/site/foundingstatement/textoft...

 

All the best for your assembly.

 

Dominic Cudmore

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Permalink Reply by Kate Edwards on October 10, 2011 at 20:16

The starting point, as the various documents make clear, obviously has to be Sunday Mass attendance.  But the background papers seem to imply that the problem isn't what happens at Mass (quality of the liturgy, friendliness of the community etc) or lack of understanding of the eucharist on the part of those who don't attend (ie poor catechesis) but some other mysterious 'real reasons' that need to be probed. 

If that is the starting assumption for the discussion, it would be helpful to provide more of an indication of just what these might be.

But personally, I'd start by looking at a combination of both poor catechesis (and not just on the Eucharist and the Mass) and poor liturgy/community as the culprits. 

As Mark suggests, the failure to teach (convincingly) what the Church actually believes, combined with shoddy liturgy, is a major turnoff for most people.  We can't expect young people to turn up at Mass (whether a youth Mass or any other) if they don't understand why the Church opposes homosexuality, abortion, why it won't ordain women and so forth - all they come away from school knowing at the moment is that the Church stands for something that society tells them is old-fashioned, worse tells them that what is actually true and good is outright evil.

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Permalink Reply by Howard Young on October 12, 2011 at 11:41

The Sunday collections – How might the expanding mission and diminishing resources give rise to new ways of doing things?

I agree with the idea expressed in the background readings that people need to be more informed about how the monies the people contribute are being used.  Times have changed and people have an expectation that money and resources be used prudently and wisely.  Also, I am sure that if people have at least some level of ownership and involvement in the day to day running of the Church, then they will be a lot more forthcoming in contributing both financially and personally to God’s work in spreading the  Good News!

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Permalink Reply by Peter Corkran on October 28, 2011 at 13:32

Thanks for your contribution, Howard.

I agree that the world has changed somewhat - the general community has an expectation that where resources are donated / contributed , the recipent will account for the use of those funds.  Governments at all levels do it; all corporations and most associations are obliged to do it.  However, with some minor exceptions such as some schools, the Church has until now decided against comprehensive reporting back to its contributors. 

There is no doubt that the community will, in time (and that time is not far off), demand full accountability from the Church for the monetary and non-monetary assets, including land and other resources, held by it. 

 

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Permalink Reply by mark on October 28, 2011 at 20:30

The Sunday Collections ..........

 

The Sunday collections stem from the source of christian charity which is a grace from god. Christian charity is one of the fundamentals of the christian faith. The church is an institution created by Jesus Christ and given to the true people of God. As christians we use our abilities (including wealth) to support and uphold our values. As an individual but also as a part of the universal church it does not concern me how collections are spent. People should give according to their means not according to how their means shall be spent by the church they are supporting. Jesus spoke of this type of giving in parables. The one that comes to mind concerns and elderly lady who gave her last penny to support what she believed was true. We as christians who follow jesus should we not do the same.

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Permalink Reply by Kate Edwards on November 1, 2011 at 21:45

Yes but while as Christians we have a commitment to almsgiving and supporting the Church, we have many choices as to how we direct our charity. 

 

Accountability on how it is spent will aid that.

 

While we have an obligation to support priests for example, it makes sense to let us know how much is (really) needed for that purpose, and to give enough information to convince us that we really do need to put our widow's mite in the Sunday collection rather than say give to Mother Teresa's nuns to feed the homeless, or the hundreds of other competing causes.

 

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Permalink Reply by Anne Ryan on October 30, 2011 at 13:25

In considering the theme The Changing Face of Sunday, we would like to raise the relationship between Sunday and the rest of the working week?  How does Sunday impact on our workplace, our family space, our participation in our local community, etc?

 

The Second Vatican Council highlighted the Gospel message and Church’s teaching of the fundamental relationship between the church and the world.  The opening words of Gaudium et Spes powerfully underlines for us this profound connection:

 

“The joys and hopes, the griefs and anxieties of the people of this age, especially those who are in any way poor or afflicted, these too are the joys and the hopes, the griefs and the anxieties of the followers of Christ.  Indeed, nothing genuinely human fails to raise an echo in their hearts.” (G&S:1)

 

It comes out of our baptism - and a deep sense of what the incarnation means - that each of us has an irreplaceable purpose and mission in bringing about God’s Kingdom.

 

Vatican II taught that the role of the Christian was to bring the values of our Christian faith into our everyday reality.  What are those values? The Gospel of Matthew (25:31-40) provides a neat summary:   we will be faithful to the gospel when we feed the hungry, welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, and visit the sick and those in prison, when we look after the “least” among us.

 

That’s a huge ask and thankfully we have the community of parish and church to sustain us.  Sunday then is a very important day that provides:

• Formation as we endeavour to live out our baptism;
• Opportunities for deepening our relationship with God; for prayer; for worship; deepening our relationships with fellow community members;
• Challenge of scripture through preaching and study;
• Exhortation to go out and proclaim the good news.

 

Anne Ryan and Chris Hicks

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Permalink Reply by Caroline Weller on November 11, 2011 at 14:29

Thank you Anne and Chris for your insights.  I agree with much of what you say.

A sentence from the final page of the background reading is also a good summary - "How can we come to a new encounter with the Jesus crucified and risen - not just on Sunday but in every moment and aspect of our life."

so.. I think the Assembly needs to ask:

"How can we teach and inspire everyone in each Catholic community to be the best Catholic Christian they can be?"

And I think the answer will be different for different people, based on age, location, personality etc.

 

Just looking at age for an example, we need different ways to answer my questions for a:

a child of 3-10 (who need to learn in a fun simple way about their faith)

a youth of 11 - 16

an young adult of 17 - 30 ish

and so on.

In terms of the children under 18, I think we need to evolve our approach. The mass is not aimed at children and their instructional needs are more fundamental - who was Jesus? Who is God and what's his relationship to me and my family? Our approach of mostly leaving the instruction of the youth to our schools and catechists means we are missing out on an opportunity to complement and grow these children and their families.

We can learn a lot from our Protestant brothers and sisters, who often have tailored and vibrant programs for different ages, teaching them at their level. It would be wonderful for us at a disocean or community level to reach other to these communities to learn what they do, and bring back and adapt them to our situations/faith tradition.  Maybe even follow the ecumenical spirit and start to teach our children together! Regional approaches could be fantastic. A lot of resources exist and are relevant to us. In larger churches, they also appoint a youth minister (could be lay or clergy).

For the youth and adults, how do we answer the question? Where do they need help to grow in their Christian potential?

There would be great benefit in adopting small group, spiritual and scripture studies. Our Protestant cousins take it for granted that they should grow in their knowledge of the Bible and are reaping the rewards. I would spread the net wider to reading, prayer and action, with the bible as a central core of learning. Many young people crave to learn how to pray to God and have a personal relationship with him. Let us help them!

 

Caroline Weller - St Matthews - 39, mum of a young boy.

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